PEOS 201 : Objects, People, Laws, Creator, Stories, Guru, Being Empty

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR9niaPfuwE

this such thing is an opportunity for everybody to meet and discuss the spiritual matters and we also conduct

the program from here and today we are going to start with the test of Siddharth so I would like to know from

Siddharth if he is ready for the test hello everyone

[Music] so you will get 10 questions and if you

answer 50 or more then you will be sent to the step number four of the program

and meanwhile everybody should simply listen to the questions and answers then

we'll discuss them then we'll take your questions so these are your questions

read carefully answer carefully no hurry okay I'll begin now with the

questionnaire so first question why is knowledge

necessary so knowledge is not necessary

but there are some there are some people who spend their lives completely

happy without having any knowledge about their true purpose but if there is an

unnecessary suffering in life uh which can be due to absence

of the true nature of the self that in order to get rid of that

suffering for their knowledge is necessary but uh

if it is not a compulsion because ultimately there is no knowledge there

is only dropping of ignorance so that will be the answer to my first

question what is the biggest cause of ignorance

so there can be many causes there there may be some there may be

simply absence of Tendencies intellectual Tendencies which are necessary to gain the knowledge uh maybe

due to society due to indoctrination

due to circumstance circumstances and uh the biggest reason according to

me is absence of a group or a guiding intelligence that is

that is the biggest cause of ignorance but yeah even in even if the gurus are

available in locality actions of Tendencies will be the next

big or important you can say

so that is that will be my answer to my second question

next one which truth is more important relative or absolute uh

it depends on where the truth is necessary

for classification of experience so uh

yeah if we are dealing on the level of Illusion then absolute truth or sorry

relative truth comes into play because we are not

dealing with the absolute reality over here in our day-to-day life there will

be relative truth which will play more importance but in

order to gain knowledge in order to know our true nature absolute truth will be

important and also relative truth can be derived from the absolute truth so

depend upon which aspect of existence you're dealing with

but any truth can be derived from the absolute truth that will be the answer to my third question

next one experience is experiencer is not an object

but nothing is an object true or false

uh so I'll ponder on the definition of

object over here object is an object is nothing but a

collection of patterns accumulation of patterns the

in and it can be in in a very cross form like a table or a

chair or it can be in a in a form that is not so much gross

it is more subtle but uh experiencer is not an object

and we don't Define experience whether it is an object or not

uh the definitions that are used to define the experience experience are

always negative in nature there is negation over there so we cannot Point towards okay this is

experience and this is not uh this is expression this is not

not an experiencer this is so

there is no objectification when it comes to experience

uh that will be the answer to my fourth question if you are the experiencer are the other

people's life a lifeless puppets

uh you know that wouldn't be the case if I am the experiencer or all the

experiences are happening to me or I am the witness

of all of them and other people they just live out their lives whether or

whether it is been permitted through knowledge or not the life will continue

as on the creature will do what is necessary for its survival

for its continued existence

and eventually uh across time if time makes any sense over

here the creature will simply dissolve

he he is already dissolved if you look from a certain perspective because

experience if if a person is established in the awareness then

he's already dissolved he's there was no Beginnings there will be no end so

I don't think it would be an appropriate to judge whether or other whether other

people's lives of people are lifeless puppets so that will be the answer to this fifth

question next one which experience is unchanging and why

oh no there is no experience which is which is unchanging all experiences change that is the defeat uh that is

definition definition of the experience that which changes

so that which is unchanging this is that aspect of the existence

which is to which the experience happens like that is the experiences

uh to to the experience or all the experiences are illusory or changing but

foreign

so which experience is unchanging no there is no there is not any experience

which changes all around changing oh sorry there is no experience that is

unchanging all experiences are changing

why is illusion not random if it has laws it should be called reality not

illusion uh illusion is not random because

[Music] if we look from a uh from the knowledge

of Illusion tells us that illusion is a fundamental change is

binary and binary change is algorithmic is I click in nature it has certain

properties so and that properties are apparent to us

in in the form of laws physical laws natural laws

and so we can say that delusion is not random

although there is certain certain things are random but uh

it it may seem random to us but one who has an extension knowledge

extensive knowledge of Illusion will uh probably disagree on that word and

the second part it should be called reality and not an illusion no there is no reality

and there is no illusion because what we are calling it as a reality is

along always changing the illusion is always changing so it cannot be real

it is not the truth and the existence cannot be classified as

reality or Illusion it is both and it is neither

so that will be the my answer to that question uh next question layered structured

clear structure is universal so why are there differences among people animals

Etc uh so yes existence is uh manifested or is

apparent in a layered structure uh

and uh knowledge of Illusion tells us that

certain patterns uh orange or or in different frequency

then other patterns and patterns have tendency to maintain

themselves they have an inertia and so

animals start from a lower layer at first that

at the beginning there is only a raw potential then there is a mineral state

according to the layered model field then there is a vegetative state where

uh plants and other biological entities respect and

then and there are reptilian and many mammalian layers

where all the animals can be classified onto that layer and then we have

shapient or awakened which can be people so why

are there differences where uh logically speaking according to knowledge of Illusion there

is no possible outcome it is and naturally evolved structure glared

structure is makes the most sense and it is the only logical outcome so

that will be the answer to that question how to remove The Unwanted States

from a Path of Knowledge perspective by simply being in Awareness all that is unnecessary will be dropped

and on the only thing the speaker has to do here is to be patient and be an abide in

the realization that is the experiencer of all the states and when he does this all

The Unwanted States whatever they may be they are dropped

is continuously evolving towards a better existence true or false this will

be false because existence just is uh

there is no better version of existence than it is night right now

uh the existence is non-trivial so

the statement that existence right now is not perfect and it will be perfect or

better in some near future will be categorically false because business is

all that there is and whatever the existence is

Here and Now although we can say that on a relatively speaking there may be a

better experience or it would uh the experiences will be more meaningful but

they too themselves will be within the existence and not uh and not the

existence so yes it will be my answer to the question

there is no veteranizations whatever it is whatever the existence is it is right now

and that that's the question thank you and I would like to hear

a commentary guruji's commentary on that thank you thank you very much this was a very good

attempt by Siddharth and he got 6.5 marks out of 10 which is a very good

score actually I can see that he has the fundamental knowledge the Essential Knowledge is there except he is still

getting confused by the Twisted questions because there are some Twisted questions in this list

and so my impression is that he is progressing

very nicely you are progressing very nicely actually very good knowledge and you need a little bit of sharpening

of it you need to become an expert in it so that nobody can confuse you no

question will confuse you otherwise your pass and you can now do all the

experiments at the step number four I am looking to add apart from the fact

that I really enjoyed the program doing writing all the articles I truly enjoyed

it and also being in your presence meeting you

twice and meeting all the people in your experiences group

and hopefully my whole life will be permeated through

knowledge and it gets refined as I progress and yes I would agree that I need to be

more articulate and also sentimentically and yes the questions were a bit tested

foreign

thank you thank you very much very good your future is very bright you

have the potential so let's discuss the questions a little bit and the first question was why is knowledge necessary

and his answer was perfectly correct not full marks that it is like a medicine

why is medicine necessary if there is no disease no need if there is no suffering

if there is no bondage no need in the existence as you know there is no

knowledge and there is no ignorance so if it is needed it is given otherwise we

don't need it then number two what is the biggest cause of ignorance again he got full marks yes the list of causes

was perfect number three which truth is more important relative or absolute here

he got half mark and the correct answer is actually that

both are important I wanted to hear only this much then both are important the

relative helps in functioning in the relative sense which means in the illusion

and the absolute is important for taking us out of the illusion both are

important so he said it depends on the need where we are and what state we are

in years that is also there but you see we cannot deny that the relatives are

important sometimes and the absolute because important sometimes no they are always important both are and the

relative truth is only a name even the absolute truth is not absolute we know

that it is arbitrary it is um personal everybody decides their own

truth isn't it so ultimately it's all practical a practical matter so anyway

his attempt was very good so he got half marks next was experiences experiencer

is not an object but nothing is an object true or false here also he got

half marks so this is an example of a two-state question now it will very

difficult to find an answer so I would like to ask people in the satsang more do they think we keep saying the

experiencer is not an object don't try to put the qualities of the object on it

but to do we have a real object here in the existence is there anything called

an object any views any opinions remember the question is very Twisted

realizing ultimately there are no objects emptiness only very nice answer

let's see if there are any opinions objects are only in appearance yes and

siddhant is saying subject object really reality is

relative truth um well we are asking are there any objects or not the question is saying

nothing is an object is this true is it true or not so I would ask siddhan to

make it clear a little bit the distinction between subject and object is relative probably is saying like this

that's right yes from a non-dual level there are no objects yes right

projectizing experiencer is experiencing itself yes so what are you going to call

an object if all that can be experienced is myself which is the subject only and

probably that is what siddhant was saying right now how can you distinguish it it will be arbitrary relative or

practical distinction only then why do we keep saying that

experiencer is not an objective there are one is saying irreducibles are

perceived as object and the irreducible is me isn't it ultimately it is me who

is getting pers who is being perceived as objects and remember the definition of objects

on The Path of Knowledge is very broad you can say that any experiences on

object the physical objects are objects obviously and the body is an object on

The Path of Knowledge the body is an object people are objects they don't like

it if if we call them objects but they are objects don't call them on their

faces but the mind is also an object remember everything is vibration only

and ultimately the vibration is V and I was expecting this kind of answer

from siddhar but as I said he needs a little bit more contemplation there

the darkest thing most instead of today's questions he is probably because

this question was never asked and actually nobody asked this question in our satsang also this was never asked in

any test so remember this thing that this is said that the experiencer is not an object

only to remove the belief from the minds of the Seeker that the experiencer is an

object of any kind that it can be experienced and has the qualities of some kinds whether physical whether

non-physical whether mental or by mental it has nothing and that is why we keep

saying that look don't try to think of the experiencer as an object think of it like a screen in finite screen or like

sky or like space in finite space but these are metaphors it is even a more

zero than these things it is not really there as an object

okay so think about it number five if you are the experiencer

are other people lifeless puppets so I was not happy with the answer here and

he got zero although my attempt was very good but he did not say that which I

wanted to hear you see in these exams the right or wrong does not matter it

really matters what I want to hear so again I would ask people if they want to attempt this answer I am the

experiencer what about the people the answer is really simple actually yes

that there's me there are no others there are no others that was one line

answer I don't know what he said actually I don't remember what he said or in other words you can say that they

are also experiences now everybody will say the same thing I am the experiencer you are that isn't it

this is the Maha Mantra are there you can say the great sayings and advaith I

am Brahman and you are that also so this is what this question is asking who are

the people and we should call them Brahman yes but people are not Brahman you see Brahman is people yes

excellent answers so let's go forward Which experiences and changing and why

full marks correct answer why is illusion not random if it has laws it

should be called reality not illusion and he got half Marks here but why half

because he said it correctly that you know there is no reality in the

manifested part there is no reality laws are no laws it is changing and that is

our criteria changing is false changing is illusion but he did not answer

back the question you know why is illusion not random he said it is random

sometimes it is not Randomness I I think he said something like this but I did not understand it so why is illusion not

random anybody it is told in the program actually I think or is the question wrong is the question Twisted that the

illusion is really random but who knows realizing it depends on the degree of

entropy hmm and that is right but what we are really

asking is why are there laws at all you see there will be a little bit of

Randomness here and there why are there laws the illusion is not expected to have any

regularity any laws any rules and siddhan is saying just because laws

appear in Randomness Randomness is not reduced very cryptic answer but I think

he but I can say that I know what he's saying Rohit is saying because it is

changing what do you mean because it is changing because it is changing it is not random it can change in a random way

what is stopping it saying there wouldn't be meaning in Randomness yes winner is almost 80 90

correct and rajith is saying for apparent stability very good very good answer Siddharth is saying laws are

there to make appearance more meaningful yes did you say that in the test I can't

remember now laws are there but we cannot say like this but the reason for the laws is to make the experience more

okay you did not but but you see that that can be taken as a correct answer

although um we cannot say that the reason for there being a law is that somebody

something existence wanted meaning to appear there no still I don't see any

good answer here without loss there would be no experience that would be perceived let

me read all of it actually I'm like lagging little bit Graham is saying resonance creates reproduction and

patterns okay that is law isn't it we are now asking the question Beyond it

why is there resonance why is their reproduction weapon is saying experience is limited to laws to make it meaningful

to enjoy the play yes many people are saying this thing so that the patterns appear structured and meaningful yes but

keep has also said the same thing that must be the right answer Keisha it is wrong to assume that

illusion is only random there are all sorts of possibilities and emptiness it is possibility for illusion to be not

random and we are in that world where it is not random hundred percent marks to

k-ships this is what I wanted to hear see and I have said this very clearly in

the program even though I don't remember where kishore's answer is perfect and siddhant is saying lack of laws is

logical impossibility yes that is covered by keshav's statement that there are all possibilities why not the

possibility of loss then what happens is the Mind latches on

to the regular and ignores The Irregular which means it ignores the high entropy

and considers or is attached to only the low entropy where it finds more meaning

the creatures the mind and the survival mechanisms they prefer it because if a

creature prefers Randomness and won't won't stay alive for for long you see so the brain is actually a patent

matching machine everybody must be knowing that those who are in computers simply matching of patterns the regular

the brain tries to find regularity among Randomness and so ultimately we perceive

only regularity not randomly something which is completely random will not be even perceived or it is

completely meaningless just like many people said so there is appearance that the universe

is perfectly logical perfectly according to laws everything no the reality is

there are all possibilities all possibilities you write something on a paper it is

actually very lawful There Are Rules According to which the the letter is

written and it is very very low entropy and so on you see meaningful information but when a dog sees you when a dog

perceives that letter complete Randomness isn't it complete Randomness for the dog

this itself is enough to prove what keshav said and what was mentioned in

the program it is simply appearance the laws are appearances there is a reason they are there the

reason is survival the regular is preferred the lawful is predictable so it is preferred and the

creatures are evolved around this perceived sense of lawfulness rules and

somebody said we are in the keshav side we are in the world where which is not

random yes this is not a coincidence because the Life Won't evolve in a

memory area or whatever we call as world where there is complete Randomness will

it evolve there no and if there is only complete Randomness that means all possibilities are not

getting manifested the possibilities of there being a regular pattern is not getting manifested so it will be a very

special area it is actually impossible to have this kind of areas there is always all possibilities in all the

memory areas so there is chance of Life everywhere in the Universal memory no

part of it is lifeless by life I mean these structured creatures entities a

choke full of creatures actually if you use any perceiving

instrument like the human brain or your lead structure or whatever you will always find creatures worlds structures

this is very amazing gram is saying something might start

random but if it has stability then it resonates and then initially random possibility reproduces yes everything

starts random you are right and then self-organizes those patterns that

remain random they do not form anything meaningful and that explains everything you see

the laws enable more laws because they enable more structure and the structure

is law this is all said in the program somewhere it is taken directly from the cabin

where they say that the mind and laws are not separate and it is actually big inside you you

must appreciate the intelligence of these people using ancient Egyptian or whoever wrote this thing they said the

mind and the laws are not separate the mind is the law that means the

structure itself defines the law if there were no laws there won't be any structure and if there won't there is no

structure there won't be any laws remember this thing is very important

siddhant is saying a lot of crazy questions are from cabalian

important text it is as good as opinion for me a cabelian is as good as opinion

it has a lot of stuff can you repeat what you just said I was

saying that if and the mind is not a separate thing which has magically

somehow gotten hold of laws somewhere and the mind and laws are the same thing

remember if there is no structure there is no law and if there are no laws there

won't be any structure the structure is the law and if I say it like this probably you won't understand completely

because you know you need to contemplate on these things contemplate on these things why was this said and you will

understand it's not that difficult but I don't know of any good way to explain

these things it has to be seen directly like this so

because he's saying through the specific structure of our minds Randomness appears to be regularity yes we try to

make it meaningful somehow okay so let's go forward even I I cannot explain it

much you see and there is one more uh thing I want to add here that look at the video games

for example there are laws in the video game isn't it if you fire a bullet it

follows a physical law there physical means the copy of the physical law simulation that it won't go straight

into the sky it will fall down and it will take the parabolic path or whatever you call it and if the character runs

out of Health the character dies and if you break the objects they you know

shatter into pieces and so on there are laws built in you cannot go through the walls sometimes you can go through the

wall if there is bug in the game but mostly they ensure there will be

collusion so but that does not make it reality isn't it

you you are very sure that it is illusion even with laws that game

computer game is an illusion so the presence of laws does not

actually prove that the experience is real and this is not understood by many scientists also because of their

materialistic mind stress mindset this is very important logical conclusion that presence of laws rules regularity

does not prove that the experience is real okay let's go forward layered structure

is universal so why are there differences among people animals Etc and

who can answer this today I am simply giving you all the questions I'm passing

it on it's a big party today question party everybody gets the questions anybody want to answer

layered structure we call it the universal memories in it and why are the people animals entities why are they so

different to understand the meaning of the um here what is the meaning of the universal in

the Universal memory and then you will be able to answer and remember we are not talking about the experiencer here

the experiencer is also Universal and only when we are talking about the experience

because all potentials are there in emptiness very good but that is not the

answer Graham is also saying the same addressing memories are different yes

memories are different but we are talking about the universal memory now late structure we say is only one and

then the boundaries are apparent between creatures the boundaries are apparent is it that's what we said in the program

how come the differences arise this is the actual question what is the reason of different behaviors of these

different bodies Minds Jesus is saying to make this game

interesting no no it's not logical answer actually that you can say poetic

answer if the game is not interesting and the game is interesting both the Brahman has no concept of interesting

and boring Graham is saying because the limited individual filters went

differently very good attempt madhurising causal bodies are different yes you are very close to the answer

vikas is saying the different unique appearances are simply the filtered view of our minds the reality is undivided

Timeless through the specific configuration of Minds which simply is originated from the same

very good attempt where you cast anybody has [Music]

um I'm also searching for an answer correct answer Sanjay Singh as per the need for

survival of layers we have defined the universal memory or

the layered structure as sum total of all the structures you should remember this we have never defined the layer

structure as one molarly monolithic single structure which is uniform everywhere have been defined like this

no we simply said if you collect everything everything that is manifested into one

you will find a structure which is the layered structure now it this definition allows for

differences so the parts of the structure remember we are not talking about the experiencer it has parts

the structure has passed the memory it is only memory it is arranged in layers

but it has Parts apparent parts and these parts they gather different

experiences during their lifetimes which is what Madhuri was saying that the

causal bodies are different yes and that is why the behaviors are different although these causal bodies form the

part of the universal memory whatever they manifest will be different

this is my answer now I don't know whether it's act perfectly correct or not but the differences are apparent not

essential essentially it is all memory now it has different programs in different

locations again we go to the computer metaphor here remember your the ram in

the system isn't it all one exactly made exactly alike but there are different

files stored there and there are different programs stored there you can remove all these programs you will load

some something else there but essentially it is the same memory functioning differently somewhere

here and there there are differences so essentially everything is memory that

is the first thing but because of the Impressions gathered through various

experiences there are different impressions in different parts of the memory and these

parts are related to whatever you call as organisms people animals whatever causal bodies the subtle bodies the

velic bodies entities whatever they are expressing these differences in the memory and remember one more thing that

if the two memories are exactly the same then they will Express exactly one organism

you won't be able to see two there two organisms there it's impossible and this is something new isn't it you never

heard it and that causes necessity of everything being different because the

same if they are same they will be seen as one remember this

so hopefully everybody understood this answer Josh has a question group mind constitutes or forms universal mind the

universal mind is the ultimate group mind there are smaller group Minds in the universal mind and there are even

smaller group points and ultimately we will never find individual mind it's always a complex structure of some kind

it's very arbitrary where we draw the boundaries very arbitrary mother is saying are the as the parts of the body

are different but makes one body can we use this analogy yes yes very good yeah

we never say that I am hand I am feet I am nose no sometimes we say like this I

am the body so it is like this is universal memory yes it is universal memory but some

different things are written in different places there and this can be understood only by metaphors

for example your heart disease is all magnetic material and it is the magnetic

material shape of a disc but actually Many Things are Written

there which are different anyhow let's go forward this discussion today it is

Maya oriented q a isn't it so number nine how to remove The

Unwanted State he got full marks and by unwanted State we simply means that are

not positive that cause Devolution not Evolution so he was right actually and

number 10 existence is continuously evolving towards a better existence true or false and he said false which is

absolutely right absolutely right existence is a whole and complete perfect and empty in every way there is

no possibility of evolution there so what is evolving are small parts of it and what are they evolving towards

nothing meaningful nothing meaningful the evolution is simply concept which is

applicable in relative sense let me see some comments Graham is

saying desire drives the fill filters of the individual to resonate with different patterns in C different

entities very good yes very good people see what they want to see this

wand can be called a desire and it is nothing just Impressions on the mind and whatever is impressed on the Mind

dictates the next experience the coming experience this thing is very difficult to

understand today is a level of difficulty is too high actually compared to our everyday discussion whatever we

are talking about is almost borderline impossible but Graham is right

but deep is saying but structures of varying arrangements are seen universally it simply means that okay

yes you are also right this is word play only play of words isn't it that's why I

said if you know the meaning of universal in the Universal memory you will know what I'm saying it's like a jungle but you see you can

say Universal jungle but every tree is different in the jungle are there same trees are two trees exactly the same in

a jungle no but isn't the jungle like kind of one thing there is similarity in the patterns

there anyhow um pratip is right Graham is saying by resonating with the

desired pattern we amplify that pattern this creates reciprocal adaptation indra's Jewel net now your first

sentence is exactly correct very very right but I don't know anything about

Ingress Jewel that is a metaphor of something else who can tell me what is

the meaning of indra's that infinite Jewel where one jewel is reflecting all

the jewels it means something else what is the meaning of that indra's net

actually indra's net Joel Nets yes saying your question part is

intoxication today too much really foreign

I came to know this right now because when I was writing the questions they

all looked very Innocent but very difficult and siddhar passed the test so

amazing isn't it because you can see I am struggling to answer some things isn't it I am myself struggling who

wrote the questions now we know some things like you know the existence has no Evolution at all

but anybody any Outsider who has not the who has not done the program or was not

gone deeper will say no existence is evolving there is evolution

what else I am doing the practice for I am the existence you see these are

really difficult questions some questions they look easy because we know the answer yes the question sorry

difficult so then is saying is it true that Seeker gets question according to their level somewhat true yes somewhat

true but they are not spared you see we don't spare them and if if I feel that

the Seeker is not really serious about the program I'm going to give them very very simple questions no this not never

happens the question the 10 questions are always mixed that means we get to

test the advanced level as well as the basic level like you can see the question number six Which experiences

and changing and why is there a childish question isn't it very very childish any

child can answer this so why is the simple question hiding in list of very

very dark questions it is mixed bag always but yes the level

gets tested some Seekers get very difficult questions and I probably by

now everybody knows that I don't write I don't create the questions I am simply

typist so that is saying today's test was a humbling experience

now you'll understand the importance of tests and now you can see those who don't

appear in tests simply watch the videos they have no future jazz is saying net was indra's weapon no

no indra's weapon is well known it is lightning bolt why is that because the

brain operates on electricity and the Indra is simply a metaphor for brain in

the ancient writings Graham has the big big bearing metaphor

to illustrate emptiness dependent origination and interpretation interpenetration in Buddhist philosophy

very good dear but I don't think I don't think that is the right answer

but very convincing anyhow you do the research you see I don't claim to know

anything about it okay sandesh is saying I have asked you question that if there is a Creator then

who created the Creator and you answered there is no Creator the existence is the

experience and experience at both can you explain that in the in depth yes you

see when you ask the questions in the chat telegram I cannot write it you know

very detailed answer because it takes a lot of time so it's always recommended that people come in satsang and ask

their questions because we have two hours here to do nothing but discuss

so yes there is no Creator why first let us take the logic and the Creator if he

is there he or she or whatever you eat and that means the existence is already

happened that means that thing exists which is going to create something it is all the creation is already there in the

form of creator and then the question arises who created the Creator which you also said sandesh

also said this thing if this question will be always present who created the Creator because if you insist on a need

of Creator then you must insist the need of the creator of the Creator insist on

that also but then you can find another creator for the Creator but then you can again

ask this question and it will go into an infinite pattern which means meaningless

question isn't it which means the concept of the creator of something is a meaningless concept

there is your logic you know this much should be enough to answer the question we don't even go I need to go into

existence is the experience and experience that combined you so that is too advanced for you sandish so we we

keep it simple answer then you see this answer comes from the Western

perspective Western philosophy there where they refute the Creator clearly

and now let us take the argument of the Indian philosophy or Eastern philosophy

what do they say that in order to create something we require a raw material and

an agency that together taken together will be called a Creator isn't it

if you want to create a product you you need the raw material in a factory a machine or when you want to create let

us say there were no factories those days so they use the metaphor of Potter

who who makes the clay parts so you to create The Clay Pot you need clay and

you need a wheel which the Potter can rotate you know Potter is also part of the system and there is the creation of

the pot now if there is already raw material if there is already machine or

energy agency to create that means the creation is already there in the form of

this raw material and the system or the agency which created and it simply means

that simply some kind of change happened the raw material changed into something that is the only meaning here it is not

a creation isn't it so this argument is foolproof if you if

you combine two arguments of the infinite regression and this agency in

the material thing then you get your answer now nobody can say that there was

a creator after knowing this much uh any intelligent person will understand that

the concept of Creator is flawed which is a mistake is wrong

so hopefully that we went into deep here a little bit so what is there then if

there is no Creator no creation what is there there is only emptiness which is

apparent in various dream like forms dream objects and nobody created it

obviously because it's not really there and it is it is the it is called the

experiencer and it is experiencing itself as illusory forms nothing is

getting created the creation is the creator you can say and so on concepts of creation and Creator both

are not applicable to the truths to the reality to the existence this is the

conclusion and obviously there are many many more many many more arguments about this and

incidentally in the word Brahma comes from Brahman who is the god of creation

who is the creator it's amazing isn't it so why is that because science says that

you know this agency created and what is the agency that whatever we call as the

vibration is actually the Brahman brahmanand and you know that all the

manifestation is simply vibration so it makes a little bit of sense there that the you know the Brahma created

everything and the Brahma can mean here the manifested or the part which is has

qualities the part of the existence which is qualities you can see confusing picture here how

come this happened because there are many many streams of philosophy in the world sometimes they are saying the same

thing using them different words sometimes sometimes they are interpreted incorrectly so on you see so yes no

creator and if you have more questions and if you want to understand more you can ask

more questions no problem because it's saying it is begin to feel that the

waking state is a frozen state of awareness and dream state is the melting state melting period of the same Frozen

waking state that gets experience before it melts completely into its own

Timeless spaceless ground and this movement repeats in the other direction in the internal to our room is my

interpretation on reality about correct we don't call it reality actually never

call it reality is your interpretation about the illusion isn't it so a waking

State you can say frozen Street you can call it poetically metaphorically Frozen State because it

changes very slowly at least some things in the waking State they change very

slowly the things that make it a waking State the things that make it a physical place are very slow like the Earth the

Sun the moon and so on you see laws so a dream you can call it melting or

disappearing State yes because it changes very fast very fast

sometimes it looks like that it has no laws at all it's kind of many meaningless isn't it mostly but still

you remember some of it that means it had some meaning it went into memory that means it had some meaning remember

the complete Randomness does not get registered in the memory so yes you can

say it like this that a little bit Frozen vibration is the physical world

which is seen in the waking State and the fast changing vibration is the dream

state it can be spread like this however it is not completely correct and

essentially there is no difference between waking and dreaming no difference essentially they are

apparently different that's all think about it Glam is saying agree maybe indra's net

doesn't fit the question but it's so cool it stretches the same problem in the education in Consciousness that is

fundamentally one yes yes I think that comes very close to the interpretation

of the indra's net my interpretation was really little bit more colorful conspiracy kind of

interpretion that dangerous and it represents the neural network in the brain or in a machine

but I don't have any proof to give you that this is the case but yes the real

meaning of inresnet as described by many authors is that

the whole is reflected in the part and the parts are reflected in the hole this

is probably the accepted metaphor Mary's saying it feels very peaceful

when you know there is no Creator then there is no one to blame only experience and look you can blame

there is no problem at all with this kind of meaningless isn't it you some people blame themselves it is all my

creation it is all my doing and that is also meaningless even I say sometimes you know your situation in your life is

your doing I say it like this that is therapy Only You see there is

therapy that is to shift the blame from somebody else to yourself which the ego

does not like and calms down causes peace it's a therapy actually yes there is nobody to blame

and actually there is no bad situation this is the more fundamental thing to know that there are no bad situations in

the existence and obviously there are no good situations also which you are expecting

so impatiently you are expecting that the situation will improve somehow isn't

it no it will never improve because it never went bad never degraded into

anything so there is no chance of improvement it is all already perfect as

it is this is the knowledge what is the ignorance some things are

bad some things are good and this thing is to to be blamed for the bad

conditions and this one should be praised for the good no and on and so

all illusion you see it's all ignorance when you understand that everything is perfect would you blame anybody or

yourself no remember so many things go wrong in a movie somebody gets murdered somebody

gets kidnapped some some you know explosions happen destruction happens

and the hero loves the wrong woman the hero falls in love with a woman who's

already in love with somebody else so these things happen in the movie are you going to blame the director of the movie

or the story writer they have created the perfect drama isn't it probably the events in the movie are

relatively not perfect you you can blame the villain or you can blame anybody you see but the story writer and the

director has and the actors have done tremendous job great job rendering that

movie convincingly so same way the existence or the Brahman is perfect in

every way I am that rest is movie enjoy it is so well written that you are

engrossed in it you see if it were a cheap movie cheap sets and bad special

effects you would have left the cinema Hall by now why are you stuck here

since many lifetimes you're stuck here there this is the success of the artist

isn't it the artist who is himself the existence he has made this art piece so

beautiful so convincing so real that you don't want to leave it amazing isn't it

party is saying I like patanjali he says God is just an instrument to surrender

to very good yes the the you see the word issuer means god here so ishwar

appears in many many places even it appears in adweb although we say it's

not there you know I I say this always that it's not there but this word was

used by ADI shankarachary and many many people so um but you know patanjali was probably

the first to Define it properly I don't I'm not aware of any other scriptures that Define it so clearly patanjali said

that the issue is a special purus isn't it issue this is one of the formula in

the patanjali formula so that is clear now the purush word comes from the sank here so ishwara the

concept of the issue or at least in the yoga comes from the sank where it is simply another creature just something

special something more powerful so those who cannot surrender to anybody

you see they should surrender to this thing and your best option is to surrender to your Guru because you will

never find issue anywhere it's a concept can you can one observe sensation

desires without identifying with it and how yes because you see the

identification comes as a thought that this is my sensation this is my desire and this thought can be clearly observed

and if you have this knowledge that it is not really mine it is simply happening just like the rain is

happening the sun rises you see Moon Rises and The Desire Rises the sensation

rises in this infinite screen of the Consciousness so as soon as you have

this knowledge you will be able to see that it is not me you will be an

identified with it and then you will be able to find what is the reason it is there if there is a desire to eat food

you'll you will be able to see that it's not mine no no it's not mine it's not me but the reason is that the body needs

food then you will be able to do the correct action which is eating

so sensation also same way you you sense pain in your hand and suddenly you find

find that you are touching a hot pan or hot coffee cup and then the correct action there is to remove your hand

which will happen anyway but then the thought comes that oh it was my hand that got burned I felt the

pain it was my pain and this is all nonsense you can see it in the light of

knowledge is saying ultimately is in Guru is also

a concept just like ishwar as you said yes yes ultimately

the guru exists only till the time there is ignorance in the student once the

knowledge is given the guru disappears and the student also disappears what is

the knowledge here you and me are one our Essence is one so who is Guru then nobody we are all ultimate Brahman now

anybody who claims to be Guru is a total idiot and every anybody who says I am

still a student simply being you see modest so yes and then Guru is anybody who

takes away this Guru and student distinction who destroys this

sandesh is saying as we discussed about there is no Creator then we have

falsified everything from Indra Vishnu Shiva those are just stories they are

very very useful stories we should not discard the stories we should try to find the teaching in the story so what

are these things three things they are not creators they are representations of

three major activities in the Universal memory now I won't say Universal memory

because he is new you can say he is there these three are

only representing three energies they are found in our experience the Creative

Energy the maintaining energy and the destructive energies and they are found everywhere you look around you will find

them but why are they like four hands and five legs and whatever you see and that

is marketing yes just like siddhan said you need to make these things popular especially among kids and so on so that

you know people pay attention if you write these things like a scientific paper nobody will read it so you can see

that just like Popular Science these are popularization of the philosophical

Concepts which are very very difficult to grasp so just like there is science very

difficult but there is science fiction very entertaining but just stories but

isn't science fiction responsible for producing so many scientists yes so that

is the utility of the metaphors strange key creatures statues and gods and

goddesses stories mythology they served a purpose they are there to attract your

attention to get your attention so that you start asking questions and this is how you are pulled into the spiritual

path look at our program and all you see look at our such things most of the stuff

here is just story we cook it up every day it is just to make our journey easy

entertaining and also informative which means we distribute the knowledge also

through stories So Stories are not bad assuming that they are truth that is you know immature

isn't it and getting the teachings out of them implementing them in your life getting inspired by the stories to find

out the truth is intelligence So Stories are a you know important part

of the culture everywhere and the thing is the fine print is missing have you

seen the movies where they have a disclaimer in front of the movie that all the events in this movie are

fictitious any resemblance to living or dead this is coincidental and I am not

responsible that is what they are saying and you see this disclaimer is now removed from many stories that's the

problem isn't it that is the problem now those who don't have a mature intellect that they think these stories are the

truth and why can't they grasp the teachings because somebody who thinks the story is

the truth will not be able to grasp any teaching any knowledge impossible

and those who are intelligent they don't even need the story they need only summary executive summary their work is

done job is finished so you see these things were made for

different kinds of seekers who are found on different levels of evolution so

everything is you know tailor made for these people by which I

mean something some are the other teaching or material exists for all kinds of seekers this is the richness of

the spiritual field nobody is returned empty-handed here they are given something if they are

cannot pay attention you know all the distraction is their attention you know for some people they cannot be a forced

to pay attention but they can be distracted easily so if that is the case of their mind that is the situation that

is the condition of their mind then they are given a distraction that is very brilliant idea isn't it

like the children in the school they are distracted by toys colorful shapes and

whatever you see so they learn something this is the brilliant idea that the old

people ancient people came up with and we still use it so as you grow up you

will leave the stories but you will retain the knowledge that is the beauty sometimes the stories are very important

like the concept of Devi and Tantra very important and if you go in Temple they

will say Devi is real Devi is the truth and can you simply leave that ashram and

can you call it Guru some kind of ignorant Guru no no no they do it for a

very good purpose okay there is one more question by sandesh can you tell us about your Guru

and your experiences with him I had many gurus and there was no special

experience with anybody that is worth mentioning and the only good experience

I had was the ignorance was beaten out that is the worth mentioning experience

everybody I met they just they did not give me any extraordinary colorful

experiences spiritual experiences or they simply shown they had that kind of

character that they used to Simply show where I'm wrong as soon as I opened my mouth you are wrong this is my

experience so about the gurus and all I learned one thing that when you face a guru just

wipe yourself clean you know wipe your slate do not even try to show that you

know anything at all because it will be shown as wrong let me see so all you need to do is simply sit down

there and say that I don't know anything please teach me this is what I learned

do not ask anything also because you are asking something on a subject that means

you know about this subject that means your slate is not blank just sit down surrender and then he knows what to say

the guru knows what to say what to teach he is only looking for surrender he is

looking for a place to start so when you go there with all the

beliefs superstitions already full then he struggles to find a place to put his

teaching in there is no space to put the teaching in this it's a over packed

suitcase what are you going to pack there so the guru's job is made Difficult by

such a student now he needs to First make you empty and that is you know more

difficult than giving you the ultimate knowledge of the universe you see because people are not ready to let go

of their blind beliefs that is more difficult than actually telling what is

truth I learned it you see because nobody told me these things so I had to learn all

these things how to sit in a pose of receiving how to sit in a receiving pose

and it is not a pose that you make with your body you see that is your attitude that I am ready to receive now I am

empty I don't know anything at all I have this only curiosity or a desire to

know desire to be liberated you express this much and you take the

kitten Parts the path of a baby cat I think everybody knows about this part of

the kitten this mind is you see so volatile that

does not stick to anything specific keeps changing so much and then you see

whatever you look at whatever you read whomever you meet the music the movies

they keep changing isn't it that is the sign of freedom what is the sign of bondage that you

cannot even look at something which is not familiar that kind of mind does not

want to explore anything he wants the same old thing in front of him every day

that is a very limited mind so what has happened is because of the

openness any any person on The Path of Knowledge any Seeker should have an open mind let me check what is this you know

this should be the attitude that means you never get stuck to specific kind of thing that means you keep yourself open

to exploration all the time any book any movie any music as soon as you stick to

one thing and that means you see sign of bondage only are you not stuck to a specific kind of

Life specific kind of food specific people you don't want anybody except

your mom and dad or only this one or two friend because you don't like anybody so

these are the signs of bondage that keep us stuck in the world in the same

pattern because there's nothing wrong with the world it's a very huge Place very good beautiful world with this this

repeating pattern is the problem which we call the habitual pattern because it

it has stopped the evolution of the creature because of its preferences for

the same same you are stuck here because of this kind of pattern that prefers only one thing

so how to start your Liberation explore don't say no to the new things

sandesh is saying now I am thinking that I am that student with the bag fully

because I have lots of questions to ask and already gathered information how can I empty it and surrender very good

question I simply assume that I don't know anything start from there that probably you know whatever I know is all

wrong because probably not probably absolutely you have heard it from somebody you never seen it yourself it's

not your experience and you should doubt it what if it is wrong what if whatever I heard from here

and there is wrong and this doubt will empty you then you are in the receiving pose then the guru will know what to do

with you otherwise you know I've seen that those people who are already full they are not

offered any teaching what are they offered sometimes nothing is offered because the guru knows you know by the

time I make this fellow empty by scolding or calling him stupid or whatever you know by the time I could

educate 20 people I could Enlighten 50 people by the time this one fellow gives

up his beliefs so they don't do anything and I learned it hard way also you know

nobody told me these things so I had to learn it and I saw that it wastes a lot

of time to handle a person who already knows everything

and it is very easy to teach somebody who is simply surrendered who says I

like you I like whatever you say I want to learn whatever you learned okay come

on then let's go so easy isn't it and that fellow absorbs everything like a sponge

and that is not the condition actually we constantly ask people to be critical of

the guru keep asking the questions but that art of asking the question is

somewhat different you see that is called the critical thinking not Gathering of facts and trivia from here

and there that is not not the questioning thing is the critical thinking is you said this now show me

how this is true that is called the critical thing what logic is behind this how did you

arrive at the solution here just like mathematics the teacher can tell you the

right answer after writing the problem and will you simply go away with dance

no any per any student of mathematics will ask for a derivation okay this is

the right answer no problem at all but I'll accept it only when you show me how

you arrive there so this is the critical thinking this kind of questions must be asked all the time

but when you approach a teacher a guru with look I know this thing now please

tell me please explain everything about this it's not very productive

go empty I want knowledge you know this is sign of emptiness actually this thing is

there in the front of our program when people enter the program there is a

filter in front of the program this is called the step one of the program and one of the question is about this what

do you want and the correct answer there is I want knowledge and there are other five answers that are simply

distractions to find out who does not want knowledge who already has a lot of knowledge and they are not allowed in

the program so it's midnight already hopefully everybody enjoyed today's discussion

like I enjoyed and Siddharth once again congratulations to you you have done a

very good job and we'll meet again next time in the next satsang thank you everybody for participating in today's

satsang see you