Experience and Experiencer, Memory and Concept

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRC6R_1I7B0 

hello and welcome to pure experiences

online satsang this online meeting is an

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and also

answer

some of your questions clear your doubts

and

discuss

whatever is important for you issues

related to your practices and all and we

also discuss

the

activities of the program here so if

anybody has any question most welcome to

write write it down or they can say it

if they want to say it

lupitopan is asking question is

experiences are illusion to whom can you

say illusion to the experiencer

no an experience is illusion or not true

or false is simply categorization which

is done by the intellect we set up the

criteria for truth what is true what is

false and we classify the experiences

experiencer is not at all interested in

what is true and false and what is

illusion

and what is not an illusion the

experiencer has no concern simply an

observer a witness

why do we call them as illusion because

they are not

the necessary essential part of the

existence it simply appears

there is something and the intellect

decides to call it as illusion

then he's asking

true nature of appearance when an

appearance is seen there are two

components object and experiencer the

object is changing the experiences and

changing or emptiness without the

experiencer an appearance cannot exist

there will be no knowledge of the

appearance

we cannot say whether the experiencer

will exist or not without the

appearances

there has to be an experiencer who will

see the experiencer existing alone in

this case

the first experiencer will become

appearance

which is not possible experiencer will

exist independent of the experiences

appearances objects if the experiencer

somehow shut down stops the experiences

then it may exist alone experiencer

nature is emptiness so this is not

possible second possibility if there is

no experience then the experiencer might

be able to know that it can exist

independently it is also not possible

because of the experience and knows

itself then it becomes an experience too

so

some very good introspection by bittopen

here but

it is all wrong

you see we can say that the existence

exists alone the whole of the existence

exists alone and

when there is a possibility mind arises

in the existence and it divides it into

two which is the experience and the

experience remember this that you cannot

introspect about the experience and the

experiencer at the level of duality it

is not going to make any sense from the

bottom levels no nothing can be said

about these so as you go low

lower in the levels like you come down

to the level of the world physical world

and all then all these things become

meaningless so the rule is you can

analyze

these levels from the from top to bottom

not bottom to top the non dual view can

throw some light on the dual view which

is the experience in the experience of

which you are trying to analyze

but

at the level of duality nothing will

come out of this kind of it is only

imaginary whatever you are introspecting

is simply imagination of some kind and

similarly if you and try to analyze the

experiencer and all from the level of

the illusion you sit here as a body and

then you try to grasp the experiencer

nothing will be known you need to be the

experiencer to know what i am and so on

what the experience is

so that is why without self-realization

nothing is known nothing is known you

cannot even reach to the non-dual state

of oneness this should be cleared as

long as you are thinking i am the body

or i am something else mental activity

of some kind

then

even the level of duality will remain

inaccessible you won't be able to think

about it properly like when i hear

people say my experiencer my experiencer

disappeared in the sleep what are they

doing they are still at the level of the

illusion my means the experience there

must be something which i have that

means the eyes probably the body mind

and that is why they never grasp it

still there is identification with the

body mind and they try to know it from

intellect perspective which is

impossible you need to be the

experiencer which is simply dropping the

ignorance and the level of the illusion

come out of the illusion and then you

can grasp that yes there is an

experience there is a mind there is an

experiencer the mind is telling you the

mind is informing the experiencer that

there are two that is the trick of the

mind and you drop that ignorance also

and then you are left with

non-dual existence

so

and this is the progress this is how we

progress

now

when you look at the experience and the

experiencer from the point of view of

the existence you that will be the

correct point of view and you will see

that they are always together they're

always together there is no possibility

that

you will find one without the other and

actually that is how the intellect knows

that they are one so he is saying that

without experience there will be there

is a possibility of the experiencer no

who will tell you that there is an

experiencer what will tell you that it

is there the truth is our direct

experiences

and logic says

that these two never go away the

experiencer never goes away the

experience never goes away what is

coming and going are the events

the kind of experiences they are

changing

the

is changing the appearance of the

existence is changing that is illusory

it will keep changing forever eternally

timelessly it was never seen that it

stops because how

how can its how can that

which exists

disappear

so when we say there is no experience

only experiencer then what has happened

is that the experience has changed into

something

which the mind cannot grasp or which is

of no use for the mind

which does not form the memory which

does not impress upon the memory either

it has become too subtle for the memory

to catch

but that state does not last

you must have seen it even the deepest

meditation you come out of it and then

what caused the experience to reappear

you will ask this question

and because any experience cannot start

from nothing it's not possible

from nothing only nothing will be

produced so what do we say it was there

it was not noticed it did not make an

impression on the memory and the memory

starts functioning which means the mind

starts functioning then we say okay

there is the experience again but

it's it never goes away because it is

the existence

so this will happen

if you do not rise above

the level which you're trying to

introspect about

at the level of duality you can only

negate things

let me check when did the experience go

away and you will find no never and then

you can check where when did the

experience went away no it never goes

away whatever are the perceived gaps

they are imaginary

then is asking experiencer becomes both

experiencer and experience experiencer

experiencing itself is that what is

happening no that is not happening

experiencer does not become anything it

is changeless it is you your essence is

the experience existence becomes the

experience and the experience existence

divides itself an existence is

experiencing itself whatever appears is

existence

whatever knows this appearance is

existence then you are that also you are

that

so he needs to go back

and

listen again go back in the program and

listen again

hypothesis based on some experiences the

experience is not depend on a particular

object but to be there some other object

must appear it is always there objects

appear and disappear yes it is not

dependent on anything at all because it

is the existence itself just like i said

the experience is always there also

because it is also existence so these

are all imaginations that things the

experience and the experiencer appear

and disappear no it never happens

then he's asking golden ornaments

metaphor we do not see gold separately

always see in a form shape likewise the

experience is present through the

experiences appearances including this

body mind and so on since the experience

is unchanging it is the essence will

this hypothesis lead with the true

nature of appearance

no the true nature of appearance is a

direct experience you can try to

investigate the true nature of what is

appearing and you will find that it is

emptiness

so it is not really hypothesis there is

no hypothesis in

spirituality no hypothesis it is in the

science in

the philosophy or spirituality there is

only truth or

or things are false things are either

true or they are

false we will never discuss the

hypothesis

never no theories imaginary things are

not allowed assumptions are not allowed

so i think

there is some confusion there in the

mind of bitter pen

you were given the means of knowledge

now why are you

running after hypothesis and imaginary

ideas why don't you use the means of

knowledge and the criteria for truth

you

you are given the equipment

and

you are struggling with the mind you're

trying to use hypothesis imagination and

thinking as tools to know it's not

possible the proper tools are direct

experience and logic say it instead of

thinking about it when you have thought

about when you're you have

seen it then you can think about it

thinking is not

banned here on the path of knowledge

so what is the proper way to sit with

the teacher look at what is then write

it down without any biases without any

preconception that is how we clean the

slate and start forming the body of the

knowledge

that is what we have done in the

program also in the videos also sit down

take a look at what exists

put down the definition that it is all

of it and then we ask the seven

questions because there is nothing more

to know except this these questions

isn't it when i say i know something i

know answers to these questions through

direct experience only so bittopen is on

the wrong path fix your practice fix

your sadhana use the means of knowledge

your intellect is simply wandering here

and there

those who think that the direct

experiences and hypothesis

will never progress

matt is asking what is the relationship

between memory and concepts see the

concept is a abstract structure that

resides in the memory concept is a kind

of knowledge you can say an idea and as

you know all the knowledge resides in

memory and knowledge is simply

impression of the experiences that are

well organized

logically and rationally organized the

organization happens in the memory so

concept is an abstract knowledge and

that resides in the memory

we are able to do that humans are able

to form abstractions

concepts

like a very good example is the concept

of a circle now there is no circle in

the world there is nothing like this

there are circular objects but the

circle is a abstract concept

when you draw a circle you have

materialized the concept now it is in

the form of an experience but it is not

a circle so this is how

we are able to do the abstraction of our

experiences and they reside as knowledge

in our memory it is very useful so the

relationship is of

holding the knowledge memory holds the

knowledge no memory no knowledge

then matt is asking what is the

relationship between memory and concepts

let us repeat

if there is no memory would there be

concepts i think i answered that yes

you're right there will not be any cons

there will not be any kind of knowledge

actually and most of our knowledge is

concepts only most of it is conceptual

but it's very useful

then matt is asking how is

existence empty of objects and people in

a relative sense they exist but

not in absolute sense

we cannot say that the existing sanity

of objects and people isn't it you look

at the existence it is full of objects

and people what do we say

that the essence of these

is emptiness we say that they are

appearances they are illusions objects

and people are illusions including this

person who is talking and

their their

essence comes out to be emptiness which

means

simply that they are unknowable

the intellect understands only this

pitch that they are just appearing there

is no substance behind it nothing is

that which is appearing as objects or

people

that is what the intellect can say mind

can say so

we do not we never say that the

existence is empty of objects it is full

of objects only that emptiness is their

nature

like the sea is full of

waves right

but the nature is water their nature is

water the

waves do not exist as independent object

in the sea you cannot

grab a wave and take it home it's not

possible

so no no independent existence of the

waves so their essence is the water it

is it was the water always that was

appearing as a wave in various forms of

waves circular waves in turbulent waves

and in the crashing waves and surfing

waves

many forms

bubbles whirlpools and so on the sea is

full of these things but no the essence

is water

similarly the existence is full of

appearances like objects and people and

creatures even the non-physical

things

but

the the essence is

something else

the essence is emptiness

why emptiness because

the mind cannot find anything there's

nothing to be found

some people are happy with this idea

that the essence is the experiencer

which is okay it is also emptiness that

which is seen is the

that which is seeing existence

is both seen in the seer witnessing and

the witnessed both they are one

so is he is asking relatives in a

relative sense they exist but not in

absolutes no they don't exist at all

the relative sense is simply our

transactional attitude that we assume

that okay there are objects in people

because they are useful for survival

then we say okay they exist they are

true also but

are they true no they are not so the

relative way is simply an arrangement

you can say it like this

we should always keep in mind that there

is nothing there if we accept the

relative truth as the truth because okay

i need to live my life so i'll just

accept that they're true

and then that is not called awareness

that means the awareness is gone if it

is always kept in mind what they are

while living a relative life because you

see there is no other life there is no

absolute life it is a dream so it

happens

in total falsehood

that is what i say in the video that the

survival happens in total falsehood it

does not really need truth

so if you bring in the awareness of what

is true then the survival happens in

awareness

while

being completely false there is no

problem now it is false and then it is

assumed true and now or something else

that is the problem so hopefully that

was satisfactory answer we have finished

answering these questions

if there are any more questions most

welcome

it was a nice satsang and i hope

everybody enjoyed it everybody got their

answers

and

hopefully you are enjoying the program

also and i'll meet you next time thank

you very much for attending the meeting