Self Knowledge before Illusion

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKY1u5aHGBk

can the true nature be known before

knowing

the illusion

so again let us invite some opinions

what do people think what is your

experience

did you did you

come to know about your true nature

before knowing that everything is

inclusion

or you had to first you know somebody

had to convince you that look everything

is inclusion

only then you

came to know about your true nature what

happened in your life

boomerang is saying no rajiv is saying

knowing the illusion is optional

guru true nature cannot be known at all

what are you doing on this path then i

am asking siddhanth this path promises

to

give you the knowledge of self which is

your true nature

what are you doing here shilph is saying

true nature is not known so what is

known then

rajiv is saying both true natural

illusion cannot be known it looks like i

am wrong now many people are saying it

cannot be known only ignorance which

considers the illusion as true can be

removed paramji this saying needs to

know the illusion

prajit is saying when everything is

removed then what remains is true nature

she'll be saying illusion is known so it

looks like there is a little bit of

controversy now

money is saying knowing is an illusion

so to know anything illusion is to be

known when can be without it

but not no it's a very good answer but

if people don't consider

self-realization as knowledge what do

they consider what do what do they think

self-realization is not knowledge

who am i

can this not be known pandering is

saying knowing illusion is optional

actually that is also my opinion but you

see there can be more

opinions here so

that is why

um

in the 3d program we first start with

the self-realization

who you are is told first

which is simply the knowledge of

self is simply refutation of the blind

beliefs about the self

that i am born that i will die that you

know i have a shape and size these

things are removed this is self

realization so you know something is

known here when people say no it cannot

be known it cannot be experienced

directly you see there is no direct

experience of the self

or the experiencer

so this can be achieved without going

into the details of the illusion this

can be achieved

without

bringing in the definition of true and

false

we simply assume that the world and the

bodies are true

but we

can still

remove them from the essence

non-essential then in the second step we

can find out that the non-essential is

not constant it is changing forms and

names

created by the mind

and so

then we come to know it is an illusion

peramji is saying self-realization is

the true knowledge

yes you see there will be opinions you

know what is the last knowledge

what is it that once it is known

everything is known

we do talk about self-realization as if

it is knowledge it is

when people are saying that you know it

cannot be known

that means that you know cannot be known

through senses or intellect or things

like that the self will never be known

as an experience you cannot experience

it you are the one whose egg who

experiences everything you are the

experiencer if it can be experienced it

is not you it is your being this is the

knowledge i am happy with this knowledge

actually

so there seems to be a little confusion

about the word known no knowing and

known so when the word known is used in

in the

for formal way organizations of the

experience in the memory that is the

knowledge

then yes the experience is never

organized in the memory it is not to be

found in the memory

it is the witness of the memories so in

this way there is no knowledge of it but

self-realization is an organization in

the memory what is the what is the

organization consists of

not this not that negative knowledge and

knowing this

remembering this will be called

awareness in our terminology

the difference is very tiny you see very

subtle try to grasp the subtleness of it

you can easily call self-realization as

one kind of knowledge you know negative

knowledge

but you cannot say that the experiencer

is known directly there there needs to

be little bit of

discrimination there it is very tiny

so

fortunately we had this question this

came up many people have

answered

from their own perspective

which one do you take

i think both answers are correct but

you know in in this

question we are asking about the process

of taking knowledge and how to know the

true nature whether this can be known

before we can go on into the illusion

simple common sense answer should be

there

there are more opinions yeshra's saying

this can be known that the experiencer

cannot be known

that is what i call negative knowledge

it cannot be found in the world it

cannot be found in the body it has no

shape no size all negative

but still it is knowledge you see yes

the experiencer does not make a direct

impression in the memory this color that

sound no that kind of knowledge will

never be found not an object no

objective knowledge very good now rajid

saying the knowledge of the self reveals

the illusion the knowledge of its

working is optional vipin is saying a

process of knowing illusion will bring

surrender which can strengthen the

abiding into nature

i don't know this can be a big topic

that when the illusion is given first

what will happen to the seeker

and that that depends on their

constitution actually and this is my

experience in the field of teaching and

the path of knowledge

and then it is sometimes harmful if

people are told your life is a lie it is

fake your body is fake your relations

are garbage

whatever you think about yourself and

about others totally cooked up stuff

obviously they will be depressed they

won't like it they will hate their guru

there are some people like this and they

laugh at these people who call the world

as illusion when they see the suffering

and the issues in the society and their

own condition is of suffering so

they you cannot accept the suffering as

an illusion it is even considered

unethical when one guru is sitting there

and laughing at the suffering look a

play a drama a dream and they then

attack the guru by saying that look if

you were starving

if you are getting killed if you are

getting abused then you will come to

know it is real so to avoid this kind of

disaster we provide self-knowledge first

once this base is made then

not telling that the experience is the

illusion it does not have any

bad effect on the mind at least this is

my opinion that is how the program is

designed you must have seen then we

actually

remove all doubts by saying that

in the illusion the illusion works

the truth won't work in the illusion in

the illusion in the play only the script

works you cannot show the camera in the

movie you see

like they say the illusion breaks

only the special effects

explosions they work there nicely

so play the play fully knowing that it

is a play you suffer the suffering and

love your friends and kill your enemies

is all fine now know what you are

then this

makes the nondual

knowledge acceptable for an average

seeker

there are some special seekers and for

them

perfectly okay that everything is a lie

actually they laugh at it

they are released by this knowledge

they're liberated

finally i don't need to worry about

anything they say finally i don't need

to worry about death and disease and

disability and all this

the

major sufferings of a human being i

don't know who i am but you know it's

all fake so no problem at all then they

go ahead and explore the illusion

they are called tantrics they love it

actually

they become lovers of the devi not

bothering about who am i

now it has some side effects but it's

okay

depends on how much impurity you have

how much attachments you have to this

illusion if there are too many

impurities too many attachments

then telling that everything in the

illusion has a bad effect

so we send them away

go and do something yoga or something

you see chant the mantras and sing the

bhajan then come back after 20 years i

tell them self knowledge

very easy very easy no side effects at

all except in few people so let's go

forward

how can a seeker experience oneness

so who can tell me how to experience

oneness yeshua is saying there is no

process if oneness can be experienced

there is again experience appears to

this

very good

that is all you need to say

there is one line explanation one line

it is not an oneness is not an

experience you see otherwise it would

also come and go it can also change when

people can have one person can have it

other may not have it

but oneness is the nature of the

existence it is one you cannot have

anything else except oneness and if it

is experienced it will become two

it will be divided into two

that is what is happening the existence

is trying to know what i am

am i

and in the process ends up dividing

itself because it cannot be seen as a

whole

still it can be known as a whole

and you can be that you can be the one

how to do that you're already it just

remove your ignorance that i'm not the

one how to remove the ignorance path of

knowledge